Adversity Service Legacy Impact

D. Lee Scott [00:00:00]:
Hello, ladies and gents. Welcome to Sound United Presents, a diverse and inclusive podcast featuring familiar names and new voices. In each episode, our guests candidly share their stories, filled with triumphs, setback humor, lessons learned, and, of course, nuggets of wisdom. We're excited to share these stories with you. Now, let's meet today's guest. Hey, folks, thank you for hitting the play button. Welcome to the friendly confines of Sound United Podcast studio. Today, I am. I'm honored. I'm honored to be joined by Mr. Fred Harris. Welcome to the show, sir.

Fred Harris [00:00:49]:
Thank you. Thank you for having me.

D. Lee Scott [00:00:50]:
Well, I'm glad. Now, this is this first day of spring, too, so this is all memorable. This is March, my birthday month. First day of spring, first episode going up. Gentlemen, I highly respect. So let's get into some questions. You ready?

Fred Harris [00:01:02]:
Got ready to go? Let's go.

D. Lee Scott [00:01:04]:
All right, here's my first one for you. You've worn many hats, right? You've been a veteran public official, historian. Sprinkle in grandparents, sprinkled brother. Sprinkle all that stuff in. But for someone that's hearing your name for the first time, how would you describe Mr. Fred Harris?

Fred Harris [00:01:23]:
Yeah, this may sound funny coming from me, but. But a man of God who does what God directed him to do. And I'll explain that a little later. Okay. All right.

D. Lee Scott [00:01:34]:
I guess we. Because you're a Warren native.

Fred Harris [00:01:37]:
Oh, yeah.

D. Lee Scott [00:01:37]:
You are Warren.

Fred Harris [00:01:38]:
Born here, raised here. I've been here all my life.

D. Lee Scott [00:01:42]:
So what was it like growing up? Say, like the 50s and 60s as a young and. And I say black sometimes, you know, African American. I'll say that. But I'll just say, as a young black child, how was it growing up in the 50s and 60s here?

Fred Harris [00:01:54]:
To me, great, great. And the reason why we as black people. And like I said, you said black, Negro, African American, colored. You know, we refer to ourselves now as black people. That takes in everybody, you know, it was great. We was a lot closer together. I tell my niece, former council person Cheryl Saffo, I tell her all the time, I said, your generation. I can't get over it. My generation was a generation where everybody. We spoke for everybody. Your generation is the me generation. We were much closer together in the 40s, 50s and 60s.

D. Lee Scott [00:02:30]:
Okay. During that time, 40s, 50s, and 60s, because I've. Growing up, I. I didn't really hear, like, the true, true history of Warren and we'll talk about that. But growing up, I just thought, oh, Ohio's in the north, and, you know, everything we read about what happens down south. That's that. But this is the north. Until, you know, I started talking to my grandmother and things like that, and she's, boy, no, we can' couldn't even go into this store or that store. So with that going with history, was there unspoken rules?

Fred Harris [00:03:03]:
Oh, yeah.

D. Lee Scott [00:03:04]:
During that time frame, what kind?

Fred Harris [00:03:06]:
Biggest one, I don't want to tell you right now, is when I came downtown with my mother. I was 9, 10 years old. Black people here in the city of Warren was not allowed to use a bathroom. In the city of Warren, Downtown Warren, you had to go in the courthouse, downstairs in the basement.

D. Lee Scott [00:03:25]:
To use this courthouse?

Fred Harris [00:03:26]:
Yes, yes. To use the bathroom. I'd stand on the steps with my fist balled up to make sure none of the hobos come down there and bothered my mother. Okay. Things were a lot different then than what they are now.

D. Lee Scott [00:03:40]:
So you couldn't use the bath. Could you go in, like, the department store? You said you couldn't go in there.

Fred Harris [00:03:45]:
No, no.

D. Lee Scott [00:03:46]:
But if you were downtown and had to use the bathroom or you had

Fred Harris [00:03:49]:
courthouse, you went to the basement in the courthouse, and that's where you used the bathroom. See, things were a little different then. Well, not a little different. They were a lot different.

D. Lee Scott [00:03:58]:
So who was your biggest, you know, like the word I'm looking for, like, to keep you balanced like that. You see all this stuff going on and it makes you angry. I could imagine. Was there someone that just kind of bounced, like, hey, hey, don't amp out. Don't need to be bailing you out.

Fred Harris [00:04:16]:
Don't.

D. Lee Scott [00:04:16]:
Like, was there a guiding person? Well, kept you in check.

Fred Harris [00:04:20]:
Here's the strange thing about that. I didn't know any different at the time. That was our life. Okay? You were colored, they were white. White people had this advantage here, and, well, you accepted that. Okay. This is all I've ever seen.

D. Lee Scott [00:04:38]:
When did you realize race shaped opportunity?

Fred Harris [00:04:42]:
When I went into the military, you know, that was my real education because I had a chance to travel all over the world. Like, I said, I was in Africa, I was in Germany, I was in Trinidad. I was all over. And I get a chance to see things. Okay. And I said, wow, that's what really opened my eyes when I went into the military.

D. Lee Scott [00:05:03]:
How to. Let's elaborate on that. How, like, what do you give me examples?

Fred Harris [00:05:06]:
Well, the best example I can give is when I went into the military, this situation was taking place in Cuba. You know, Kennedy had put the embargo around Cuba.

D. Lee Scott [00:05:17]:
The Bay of Pigs.

Fred Harris [00:05:19]:
Pigs, yeah, yeah. In other words, I'll make everything real short. Anyhow, we had a chance to go home on leave after that because there was a lot of tension when the ships turned around for Russia and went back. You know, everything was. So they said, okay, you can go home on emergency leave. So it was three of my friends, actually, four of my friends, they were white, I was black. And my one friend had a car, and he lived in Columbus, Ohio. So he said, hey, Fred, you got. You can ride back to me and then ride back to the Columbus with me, and, you know, you can catch a bus and going into war. And I said, great. So as soon as we had our formation that afternoon, we took off. We jumped in the car, uniforms on. Well, we needed gas, and so we stopped at this gas station. We said we'd get something to eat because they had a little restorant hooked onto the gas station. So Unger, he said, I'll pump the gas. You guys go in and get something to eat. So we walked in the door, and I had my two, three buddies on my side. So we walked in. I took about three steps and I stopped. And the follow white fellows on the bar stools. They turn around, they looked. And the girl behind the counter, she looked, and it dawned on me. I'm in Alabama now. This is in 1962. And I froze. And she said, I'm sorry. She couldn't have been no more than 18, 19 years old. She said, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, but I can't. I'm not. We're not allowed to serve colored people. So I was just standing there, froze. I didn't know what to do. So I said, okay. Okay, because I thought about it. I didn't want no trouble, you know, I thought all stuff that I had read. So in the meantime, Unger walked in. He said, what's wrong? And the fellow beside me said, well, they won't serve Fred. And he said, what do you mean they won't serve Fred? And the girl behind the counter said, well, we just can't. They'll fire me. We're not allowed to serve colored people in here. Unger said something to change my life. He said, don't you see he's got a United States army uniform on and you can't serve him? She said, I'm sorry. All I said was, let's go. We get in the car and I said, okay, when you get to the next restaurant, you guys can stop, go and get something to eat. Bring me something out. So they said, fine. So they got dark at that time, so we ran. There was a restaurant, so they stopped. It was like a truck stop. And I could hear the hillbilly music playing. Yeehaw. You know, they were square dancing, so you guys go ahead. So they went in, and I sat in that car, and I thought about it, and I said, wait a minute. What. What can happen if they catch me sitting out here in this car, a black man? Because they don't care nothing about black people, don't care nothing about this uniform. I crawled over the seat because I didn't want to open the door. I didn't want the light to come on. I didn't want them to see me. I crawled over the top of the seat in the back, and I pulled the coat over, and I laid there with tears in my eyes, and I said, what am I doing? I got a United States military uniform on. I was willing to die for this country, and I can't even get a hamburger. Well, about 30 minutes later, they came back, and they opened the door, and they never asked me why I was laying in the back of their car. They knew why. I got out. I went in the front seat. They handed me the hamburger and a milkshake, and I sat there, and a couple minutes later, I rolled the window down, I threw it out the door, and all the way back to Columbus. I bet you I didn't say five words that changed my life. I was angry, and I said, I will never accept this again.

D. Lee Scott [00:08:56]:
You know, when I was at Hiram, I had the opportunity to talk to some Tuskegee Airmen, because I think the last one, I think, just. Just recently passed. And it was kind of that conversation, you know, that we were having, because, you know, you hear about the red tails and all this other stuff, and, you know, not just them, anybody that served in the military, you know, you go and you are. You've given your life, right? There's no guarantee you coming back for a country that you love, right? And people that you love. And so, you know, when I would have these conversations with them, it was like, young man, imagine, you know, like the GI Imagine coming back. And, you know, you've done all this time, you've been to places, you've even been to countries where they embrace you, right? You don't even look like them, but they embrace you. And you come back to the country that you serve, that, you know, and you can't. A restaurant, you can't buy property. You can't barely do anything. The parade really isn't for you. You can be in the parade, but it's not really for you. It's, you know, so I can't imagine that, you know, having to go through that, man. And it does like listening to it. No matter how many times you hear it, it does make you. It do make you angry.

Fred Harris [00:10:03]:
It changed my life. I said at that moment, I will never accept that again. I didn't care, see? And that's what I became, what you called super militant. I didn't care anymore.

D. Lee Scott [00:10:17]:
Okay? So for you, let's go back before the military, because you could have easily flipped out right, in that restaurant. You know, you had your crew with you, you know, like, you could have whatever, but you chose not to. And I think looking at that, sometimes, you know, a lot of that patience and, you know, kind of calm down comes from somewhere else, right? So.

Fred Harris [00:10:42]:
Well, it's not so much I had the patience. I'm gonna be honest with you.

D. Lee Scott [00:10:46]:
Yo, you willing to tear?

Fred Harris [00:10:47]:
Simple fact. I was in Alabama in 1962. They would have hung.

D. Lee Scott [00:10:51]:
Yeah.

Fred Harris [00:10:52]:
If I would have. I didn't have to flip out if I would have said the wrong words. And it dawned on me, this uniform means nothing to these people. What am I doing now? We had racism here in the city of Warren, but nothing like the racism in Mississippi, Alabama, and Georgia at that time. I mean, that was. They didn't play games down there. And keep in mind, this was before the 1964 Civil Rights Act. It was legal to say, no, you can't come in here because you're colored. We don't want you in here. That's the era that I grew up with.

D. Lee Scott [00:11:26]:
When did it. On your journey back. When did it become a little bit more safer, a little bit more friendlier for you? What state did you get to? Or if anything,

Fred Harris [00:11:40]:
it became a little more safer. When I say we young people raised our fist and said, we are no longer going to take this. And we start rioting in Detroit and in San Francisco and in Cleveland, Ohio. And Stokely Carmichael. Stokely Carmichael said, we will burn this country down. Okay? It was Richard Nixon who said, we have to do something because they're going to destroy our country. And he came up with this thing, affirmative action.

D. Lee Scott [00:12:14]:
That was Nixon's.

Fred Harris [00:12:15]:
That was Richard Nixon, of all people. Richard Nixon.

D. Lee Scott [00:12:18]:
I forgot that nickname.

Fred Harris [00:12:20]:
But he did to save the country. Because we said, we will burn the United States of America to the ground. We're no longer going to take this. See, we step back from my father's generation. My father's generation was different. We were the black power generation.

D. Lee Scott [00:12:40]:
Okay, so now I'm. Go back to this question, because I'm just interested. So you were in Alabama, y'.

Fred Harris [00:12:45]:
All.

D. Lee Scott [00:12:45]:
You're driving up to Ohio. Okay, so I don't know how many states.

Fred Harris [00:12:50]:
Three white fellas.

D. Lee Scott [00:12:51]:
Okay, so where did you feel comfortable? Where did. Where did some of that. Obviously not Alabama, right? What state did you hit? Was it when you finally got to Ohio that. I'm not going to say you were 100% comfortable, but you were not as, you know, as tense as being in Alabama? What state did you hit coming up where you was like, okay, I can maybe breathe a little bit, or, okay, I can actually go in here and eat?

Fred Harris [00:13:16]:
Wow. The truth is, that opened my eyes in such a manner where I wasn't comfortable, period.

D. Lee Scott [00:13:22]:
No matter where you went?

Fred Harris [00:13:23]:
No matter where I went. That's one of the things, the key things that changed my life. Okay? And I said, you know what? It's not just in Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia. It's in Warren. Ohio, too. And I'm no longer going to take this. I'm going to speak out. It may. I don't care about the consequences. I'm going to speak out.

D. Lee Scott [00:13:41]:
Who taught you? Because that's one thing you've always been consistent, just, you know, leadership. And I can't wait to get to the story when we first met. I'm gonna try to squeeze that in here. But who taught you the most about character and courage when you were young?

Fred Harris [00:13:57]:
My father. My father, I seen what he went through in the mill, the Republic Steel at the time, that was the big employer, Republic Steel Steel Mill. I seen what he went through down there, and I seen what he experienced with my mother, how my mother would try to get him to do things, and he couldn't do it simply because of his color, you know, and look on his face. See, I'll never forget that.

D. Lee Scott [00:14:25]:
Do you. Is there lessons that you hold still from that? I mean, you. You never forget that. I couldn't imagine, you know, seeing that. But is there's lessons from your father that you hold still today?

Fred Harris [00:14:36]:
Well, yeah, a lot of lessons from my father. My father was in World War II in the military, and he was a master sergeant, of course, with the colored people. Colored troops back then, you know, it was segregated. See? And he taught me about time. He taught me about discipline. And I look back and I look at the things he went through, and I said, how did he. How did he. How did he take that? How did he. How did he not flip out and do that? See, but he was very disciplined. So I learned my discipline come from him, not my mother from him. From.

D. Lee Scott [00:15:11]:
Is he part of the reason you joined the military?

Fred Harris [00:15:15]:
Partly. That's a story within the South. The reason why I always wanted a job at Republic Steel, you know, steel mill. When I was in high school, I had a football scholarship. Bowled and green in Ohio University. And I turned it down because I see no use for having a degree back then. Okay. I wanted a job down there at that steel mill so I could buy a nice big yellow Bonneville. That was my dream.

D. Lee Scott [00:15:44]:
A Bonnie, huh?

Fred Harris [00:15:44]:
Bonneville. One of my buddies had one. And, boy, that thing looked as long as a telephone pole. That's all I wanted, was that job. I begged my father to take me down there. He wouldn't do it. So I told my mother. So she said, no, you take him down there. So my father one day said, come on. So he took me down to the mill, and I said, man, I'm going to get that job. I'm going in there. He took me in there, and I thought, oh, the noise, all the banging and clanging. And so he said, come on. So he took me up on the rafters and he said, now watch. And we was looking down and this oven opened up and this steel came out. And this guy grabbed it and he put it on his rollers. And I shielded my face. Now we was clear up in the rafters. But the heat was so intense. And I asked my father, and these. This changed my life. I asked my father, how does he stand that close to that heat like that with that steel mill? My father said two things. He said, number one, he has on a lot of clothes, the shielding from the heat. And he said, number two, you get used to it. That changed my life because when he said, you get used to it, I thought, not me. No, I didn't want that. So I want. My buddy said, let's join the military.

D. Lee Scott [00:17:05]:
Okay, what branch did you serve in?

Fred Harris [00:17:07]:
Army. United States Army.

D. Lee Scott [00:17:09]:
Did you, like, was it definitely going to be the Army? Did you think about. Or was times different where you couldn't get a Navy or.

Fred Harris [00:17:15]:
Just never thought about nothing different. Just I was young. Keep in mind, I just turned 18 years old. So I went down to the park, and that's where the recruitment office was. And I said, okay, let's join. I didn't give us join the military. I didn't know what I was doing. That was the best thing I did in my life.

D. Lee Scott [00:17:35]:
Good. That gives me a nice segue into this question. What does Serving in the military teach you about responsibility and leadership?

Fred Harris [00:17:43]:
Everything. It taught me more. I already had discipline because of my father. You know, the discipline. To this day, I don't use a clock. When I get up in the morning, whatever time I get up, he said, you just get up. So I didn't know any difference. So I get up. He taught me. He was very disciplined. Okay. So I didn't have a problem with the discipline, but I had a chance to see, go around the world and talk to people in Africa and Germany and Trinidad. And that was the biggest thing that I learned from in the military.

D. Lee Scott [00:18:14]:
Was there a time, a moment while you were in uniform that changed you?

Fred Harris [00:18:20]:
Like I said, the biggest change was what I experienced, you know, in the back of that car. That was the main thing right there. That changed me right there. That was the main thing. Okay. Now, I had my experiences in the military. You know, keep in mind. I can't keep reminding this was in the 60s, 62, 63, 64, 66. Yes, sir. So things were not that in the military. You know, we had our problems there, too. The blacks.

D. Lee Scott [00:18:52]:
Was there a time in the military where the discipline that you had was in conflict with compassion?

Fred Harris [00:19:00]:
Yeah. Down there in Columbus, Georgia, 1963, we. And I say, we, the black soldiers, we would take the. They had the machines where you put the milk in there, you know, you pull a lever and the milk come out, you know, okay. We would take the food that was left over from the cafeteria. We would take it down and we would give it to the black women down there in Columbus, Georgia, because it was tough. You know, it was tough situation down there for black people. So we'd take it out. Well, the officers found out that we, the black soldiers, was doing that, so they put a stop to it. So the United Appeal, you know, given donations to the United Appeal. The captain wanted 100% participation. I refused to do it. I said, no, I'm not giving them anything because of the way they treat the people down there. I'm not giving them anything. So I was called in by the captain, and he wanted to know, why won't you do this? And I explained to him the way they treat these people down here in Mississippi, Alabama and Georgia. You want me to get to United Appeal? No, I'm not going to do it.

D. Lee Scott [00:20:09]:
See, what was your. What was your rank when you were.

Fred Harris [00:20:14]:
I went up to sergeant, but I went back down to corporal because I lost the stripe.

D. Lee Scott [00:20:21]:
Oh, I was gonna say. Because when you. You told me you said no to the captain, I'm like, okay, what, what, what happens after you say that?

Fred Harris [00:20:28]:
But they, they thought I was an oddball. You know, they kind of.

D. Lee Scott [00:20:33]:
But I mean, do you think compassionately. They understood. But again, it was that discipline in the military. Do you think they, some of them understood where you were coming from? And maybe off the side said, hey,

Fred Harris [00:20:42]:
man, they didn't care. They didn't care. Okay. See, it was white hair and colored over here. And the attitude in the lot in the military was, you're, you're, you're, you're. You're in the military, you're a soldier, but you're still colored. Don't forget your place. Okay,

D. Lee Scott [00:21:04]:
so I'm gonna fast forward a little bit, skipping over a lifetime and. And there's some people who probably don't know, listen to this. That I am sitting in front of the first. Right. You.

Fred Harris [00:21:16]:
You know, that's where history come in. I was not the first. I was the second.

D. Lee Scott [00:21:20]:
Okay, so you.

Fred Harris [00:21:21]:
Bob Dawson was the first. One of my mentors, he's the one that brought me to City Hall. He was the first. That was 40, over 40 years ago. That's why history is so important.

D. Lee Scott [00:21:31]:
So. Right. So when people say. Cause I've heard you were the first. Right, but Mr. Dawson was the first.

Fred Harris [00:21:36]:
Bob Dawson. Exactly.

D. Lee Scott [00:21:38]:
He was the second. Okay, what did that. So for people who don't. I gotta get the title in there too. Cause they'll be like, what is he talking about? So you became Warren's second black Safety Service Director.

Fred Harris [00:21:49]:
Correct? Correct.

D. Lee Scott [00:21:50]:
Okay, second. What did that role mean to you personally?

Fred Harris [00:21:55]:
What did it mean?

D. Lee Scott [00:21:56]:
Matter of fact, let me go back a second. So Mr. Dawson was. Was the first. Exactly how many years went by when you became the second?

Fred Harris [00:22:04]:
22.

D. Lee Scott [00:22:05]:
So for 22. Okay, right. And I imagine what. He served two terms or however many terms or what have you.

Fred Harris [00:22:12]:
He served. He served two terms and he was a flight first black to run for mayor. He lost by 152 votes. Just 152 votes. Wow.

D. Lee Scott [00:22:23]:
And then 22 years later, you come in, you take on a role. What did that mean for you personally? Especially if we talked about how history is important, because I'm sure there was some people that might not have knew Mr. Dawson. And you were the first. Right. What did that mean for you personally, though?

Fred Harris [00:22:42]:
What you mean to become Safety Service Director? Yeah, at the time, it didn't mean a lot to me because I really didn't want. Asked to be Safety Service Director. Hank Angelo, the young mayor, he said, fred, you have to come down here with me. I need you to come down here with me. I never had any intentions of going down there, see?

D. Lee Scott [00:23:05]:
So you were him just.

Fred Harris [00:23:07]:
I was his campaign manager. And the reason why I was his campaign manager, he was a safety service director at the time. And I had a little problem with the drug dealers here in the city of Warren because I was totally against drugs. And that's a story within the South. But that's how he met me. And then he said, I want to talk to you. And he met me down to MOK House and we talked for about an hour and a half. And he said, wow, you know a lot about politics. A year and a half went by and I got a call. I was a Tribune and I was a manager at the Warren Tribune. And they said, this young fella, Hank Angelo, they said, hank Angelo, he wants to talk to you. And I said, oh, dad, that's a young fellow. And I said, what is it? I took the call and he said, can I talk to you? I want to meet you. So I met him down the MOCA house again. We talked for about an hour and a half. So when we finished talking, he said, hey, I'm going to run for mayor and I want you to be my campaign manager.

D. Lee Scott [00:24:10]:
Just like that.

Fred Harris [00:24:11]:
That's how we met.

D. Lee Scott [00:24:12]:
Wow. When did you feel the weight of that position?

Fred Harris [00:24:19]:
You want to know the honest truth?

D. Lee Scott [00:24:20]:
This sound united? Yep. As long as you don't throw no F bombs in here.

Fred Harris [00:24:26]:
I never felt the weight because it meant little to me. I didn't have any desire to go up in politics to be the mayor or anything. I felt no pressure.

D. Lee Scott [00:24:37]:
So with that position, and if I'm understanding it like that position, you are, are you over a lot of the

Fred Harris [00:24:46]:
in our form of government. And this is what the young people don't understand today, black or white, we have a success story form of government here in the city of Warren, which is one of the few cities left under this type of government. You have a mayor and the mayor only has to be in his office one day out of every 90 days. That's all. It's the safety service director who is a lone department head in our former government here in the city. These people that they refer to, the department heads today, they are not department heads, they are superintendent. There's only one department head and that is the service director. Safety director, that's it.

D. Lee Scott [00:25:29]:
Now, so with that then he is responsible everything of every of the of the staff. Okay?

Fred Harris [00:25:36]:
Yes, but you serve at the wishes of the mayor.

D. Lee Scott [00:25:41]:
Okay, now with that. So I want to go back to that question where, you know, I was talking about just the weight of that, right? You come in new position, you have no desire to be safety service director, Right. You were asked, picked obviously for what you know, and things like that. Now I want to go back to when did you feel the weight of that? Because now you are. You're here and you have all these responsibilities. Like, was there a point where you just not wait where I'm walking away, away from this or nothing like that, but just the weight of something like that. Yeah.

Fred Harris [00:26:13]:
Nah, because when I came in, I said it publicly and that's the reason why I want bought one of these books. Because I want you to give you this book. It's all in the book. I felt, no, wait, I said, what I'm going to do, I'm going to change the city of or. See, I had no desire to go higher to be the mayor or anything. And I'll tell you about that. That's another story. And no desire to go higher. So I said, I'm going to do what I think God put me here to do. I'm going to change this city. And we did.

D. Lee Scott [00:26:44]:
Okay. When did you realize. So with that, because we follow along these questions is perfect because they all lead into. But give me a moment or moments in Warren city government when you realize that you were breaking new ground because it goes along the lines of you making an impact and a change. When did you break new ground?

Fred Harris [00:27:03]:
Good question. When I said, and I looked at the budget and I said, you know what? We're spending millions and millions of dollars and we're not giving a penny to anybody that looks like me or any female businesses. So I had counsel put through an ordinance that said 13% of all goods and services is to be targeted towards African American or women. 2% for women businesses and 13% for African American businesses. Okay. That was the key break right there.

D. Lee Scott [00:27:44]:
So that broke the new. Like that was one of the major things right there. Was there anything else with.

Fred Harris [00:27:48]:
With that, like, well, then comes my police department.

D. Lee Scott [00:27:52]:
Okay.

Fred Harris [00:27:53]:
So here in the city, you're the safety director too. So that means you're the administrative head of the police department. Now, I could not deploy policemen. Only the police chief could do that. But I control the budget. So the police chief, he better listen to the safety director.

D. Lee Scott [00:28:16]:
Okay. And you were over fire too, as well, right?

Fred Harris [00:28:18]:
Oh, yeah, fire. Fire too.

D. Lee Scott [00:28:19]:
All the utility. Okay, then you. I just wanted, you know, this is not one of the questions, but I'm gonna Go into. When you. How long. How long did you serve as Safety Service director?

Fred Harris [00:28:29]:
Four years.

D. Lee Scott [00:28:30]:
Four years. Did you. And then after that, did you want to do anything else and.

Fred Harris [00:28:36]:
No. What happened was a group of ministers and NAACP Urban League, they had a meeting and they called me to the meeting and they asked me to run for mayor. I had no real intention to run for mayor. I could. That was not that politically, you know. So finally I said, okay, I'll do it. See? And one of the main reasons why I wanted to do it, because I want to debate the people, Caucasians who were running for mayor.

D. Lee Scott [00:29:10]:
Okay? Okay.

Fred Harris [00:29:13]:
And I wasn't a very good politician because like I said, I don't hold back. I say what I want to say. And the main thing that I said was I, if I'm elected mayor, I'll be the mayor for the entire city. But I'm going to be partial to my people. No different than Danny Sapphira did Italian. Hank Angelo was in Italian. The different people. I'm going to be partial to my people. They said, fred, don't say that. Don't say that. Don't say that. The white people are afraid of you. They like you, but they're afraid of you. I never changed. I stayed true to what I believed in.

D. Lee Scott [00:29:50]:
Consistency.

Fred Harris [00:29:51]:
Yeah. See, that's why I'm not. I was never a good politician.

D. Lee Scott [00:29:54]:
But it seems like, I mean, you going back, you've been called like in some way, people have reached out and called on you. You know, you. No ambitions to do this or that. But you have been brought forth to, you know, from these individuals who obviously respect you and stuff like that, to do that. Seems like a thing with you that people just. They pull you, whatever.

Fred Harris [00:30:17]:
But that was. And that's why that was my true calling. Not to be the mayor. Not to be. My true calling was to stay true to myself. And this is why I felt that God put me here. See? And I never changed. Like I said when I was safety service director, I never. I had an open door policy. I never shut my door. Anybody could come and see me anytime they wanted to. You didn't need an appointment. You just walk in city hall. And if I wasn't in a meeting. Okay, let's talk. Gotcha.

D. Lee Scott [00:30:46]:
So here's this little story I'm gonna tell. Cause this is. Cause I wanna move on a historian that you made an impact on me. And I wanna say that might have been 97. Were you safety service about 97?

Fred Harris [00:30:59]:
Yeah. Okay, 98. Yeah.

D. Lee Scott [00:31:02]:
So there was a restaurant and my Cousin worked there, and he called me one day and said, hey, we can't get these. It was a new restaurant. I don't wanna throw it out there. But he was like, we can't get these tickets. You know, something's wrong with the kitchen. We can't get these tickets. I was always known as a computer person. Like, I. You know, I was one of the first to get a gateway computer. Yes. So, you know, and I worked in, you know, I worked in retail and stuff, so I understood some of those systems and things, you know, designs and all that other stuff. And so he called me, he said, man, you know, we need you to come up here. And me being me, I'm like, well, I ain't doing it for free. Like, you know, I'll come up and take a look. It was a ticket system. They. They couldn't get it to work. So I went in there, looked at a few things, ran some tests. Boom. They did a test. Boom, boom, boom. We did a beta test. It all worked out from that point because I just finished business school. And, you know, and so I was talking to a couple of the owners, and, you know, they were saying, we want to do this? And I'm like, nah, I wouldn't do that. You know, you need to make sure this. And, you know, this is going to be like a, you know, type of restaurant where people can come and just have a good. That stuff. Well, them kind of out of the way. And it went from this, and then the restaurant kind of went. Kind of went down. And then one day, I get this phone call. Matter of fact, I think I had just started. I started a job somewhere. But I got this phone call, and it was the guy who. My cousin, who would ask me to come in to fix the tickets. Well, his friend, one of the owners, was like, hey, man, we got to go down to city hall and talk to the mayor, the safety service director. I think the police chief was there in the fire, right? And I'm like, well, why y' all need me to go down there? I don't. You know, I don't. You know what you mean? He's like, oh, man, I just need you to go down there and just. Just be there and. And just. Just help us and listen. I'm like, okay. So I tell Erica, my girlfriend, my late wife now, and I say, well, I'm gonna get dressed. I gotta go to city hall in a couple days. And she was like, what, you know, you running for something? No, I was like, my cousin want me to come down there and just sit, I guess, whatever. So day comes, I put on this suit, I go down there. Everybody says hi. We shake hands. Two of the owners were late. The main owner was there. And I just sit. And I remember the mayor, Mayor Angelo saying, and who is this gentleman here? Very respectful, very respectful. You know, who is this gentleman here? I said, sir, I'm just. I'm just here with them. I said, I fixed tech, but I'm here, you know, I'm here for support or what have you. And it was a calling because some things was going down at the place that wasn't cool. But. So we had this meeting. The meeting's over. I get up, people shake hands. Some people don't shake hands, but they all leave. And you come up to me and you said, young man, very professional. I like that suit. That's all you said to me. I went home and told Erica. I was like, the Safety Service director said, this blue suit is nice. See, I told you every man should own a blue suit. But you said that to me. And you. You know, it's one of them things where you don't know how much power your words will have over somebody, but you look. And it wasn't like you just kind of nonchalantly walked off. You looked at me in the eye. I remember you touched a suit, and it wasn't a touch for quality. It was like, you know, this gentleman, and I'm gonna keep it a bill. This black man, older black man, is telling me something that I probably would have never heard, right? That, hey, you look good in that suit. Keep up the good work. And that's my story when you were Safety Service director, that we left that meeting. And so sometimes when I was getting your questions together, I was like, man, what if I would have never showed up? You know what I mean? What if I was just like, ah, I got a blue suit.

Fred Harris [00:34:42]:
I'm done.

D. Lee Scott [00:34:42]:
But it was the fact that there was this figure, not your position, but who you were, because there was a lot of us. There were a lot of us. You know, we were our own dad or uncle, right? We didn't have that. So to hear you say that, it was equivalent to Mr. Bob Hill, who's passed, telling me one day as a temp agency, I went in and I dressed up. He said, nice tie, young man. Very nice tie, changed me forever. I was going to TJ Maxx buying ties after that, just because. But you had that impact on me. So I wanted to put that in there.

Fred Harris [00:35:12]:
That's one of you. It's a good story. I don't remember. That's one of the problems I have today, okay, with the generation today. I can't get over the fact in City hall, the mayor and when I talk to him, he's in, in Florida now, you know, Mayor Angelou, and we talk at least once or twice a month, we both can't get over this fact. Not one time, not one time did we ever walk in City hall where we did not have on a suit and a tie. When we went to council meeting, we had a suit and a tie, and all my department heads wore suits and ties. I look at things today and I go, wow, how things have changed.

D. Lee Scott [00:36:03]:
Well, what do you, what do you say to people that, you know, in times have changed? Like, yes, I've worn. I've been told that I was overdressed at certain meetings that I go to when I wear a suit for it could be to meet you. To me, it's a sign of respect. Yes, it signifies non verbally certain things. But I've been told that, hey, you're kind of overdressed a little bit, but that's where I'm at. But you will have people say, hey, times have changed. You don't need that tie. Just throw on a blue blazer, white shirt, you know what, just be business casual and things like that. So what do you say to people? Well, I'm in line with wearing a suit, you know, things like that. But what do you say to people, like, times change, we ain't got to do all that. And, you know, just professionally, what I

Fred Harris [00:36:50]:
say is, you know, you're right, times have changed. Look at the young people today, especially young black people, when they walk around with pants hanging down behind their butt. See, they have no respect. And it was my generation who allowed that to happen. Okay? Like I said to us, a professional person, and you walked around, you put your suit and your tie on, you look respectable. It's gone now.

D. Lee Scott [00:37:24]:
Do you think there's a time that it'll ever come back? And if you. If it does, it's two part. I hate to hit you with it like that, but do you feel that what needs to be done to bring that sense of, you know, I don't want to say professionalism, but bring that back.

Fred Harris [00:37:41]:
Ah, that's a, that's a good question. Because I have grappled with that in my mind for several years. And I look at the generation, I said, what have we done? And see, there again, I don't blame young people. Yeah, I blame my Generation. Because we allowed. And I say my generation. I'm talking black people. We allowed this to happen because, like, one of my mentors told me, Dr. James Rogers, I don't know if you know who Dr. Spock was. You ever hear Dr. Spock? Oh, yeah, Yep. We. He. He was the one who said, young people, little people, they're like little adults, and we should listen to them. They have rights. Well, in the black community, young black folks didn't have no rights. You listened to your mother and father and your grandmother and your grandfather. You listened to them. See, we start raising our children like Caucasian children. They have rights, and we let them do this stuff. We never did that before.

D. Lee Scott [00:38:47]:
Yeah, because I even, you know, if you met my children, it's. And I have friends who say, well, that. That's back in the day. But they. Yes, sir. When I meet you. Yes, sir. You know, I'm in my 50s. Yes, sir. No, sir. Yes, ma'.

Fred Harris [00:38:59]:
Am.

D. Lee Scott [00:39:00]:
No, ma'. Am. It's not a. To me, that's a sign of respect.

Fred Harris [00:39:03]:
Exactly.

D. Lee Scott [00:39:04]:
You know, but so my question to, you know, we can say, well, we. Where we went wrong and stuff, and how to. Do you think. Do you think that when I say generation, I'm just gonna say, say millennial Z. Do you think they want to listen, Ryan. Else the Z's and millennials. Do you think they want to. Do you think they want to hear. Going back to that.

Fred Harris [00:39:26]:
Yeah or no, this is one of the reasons why. And I'm not a big Facebook fan, but I understand it's here and it's not going anywhere. That changed the face of this country called Facebook 100 Social. Everybody has a voice now. See, and like I said, my last thing that I put on Facebook here last week, I quoted these different things in the Bible, and I put down where you could find them in the Bible. It's not coming from Fred Harris. See how we should treat the generations coming before us and why those generations should listen to your elderly people. We stop listening to elderly people. Step back. It's a new generation. You don't understand. You're old. You know how many times I've heard that? You don't understand.

D. Lee Scott [00:40:21]:
Oh, I get a little bit of that now. I'm like, what?

Fred Harris [00:40:24]:
You're going to get a lot more as you get older, you see?

D. Lee Scott [00:40:27]:
Yes, sir. Yeah.

Fred Harris [00:40:30]:
So. But to go back to what you said, I blame my generation for what's taking place now because we allow this to happen. When I was growing up in the 40s, 50s, 60s, if you said something your mother told you to say, do something. You didn't do it. There was nothing for her to smack you upside your head, say, boy, get over there and do that. Yes, ma'. Am. You know, see, you didn't have to talk back to him. You could just roll your eyes. I had a habit of going, I'd get smacked upside the head, feel it

D. Lee Scott [00:41:05]:
coming before the hand even raised.

Fred Harris [00:41:07]:
Exactly. I knew it was coming. You so much as touched one of these kids today, and children's services will be knocking on your door.

D. Lee Scott [00:41:15]:
Yeah, see, yeah, we've had conversation about, you know, stuff like that. You know, one of my good friends, Iron Fist, Velvet Glove, you know, that was his kind of analogy. And I believe, you know, you have to put some, you know, discipline in there, right? Fair, firm, and consistent. I remember telling my children when they were young, I'm not your friend. I'm just not right. You know, I'm dad, this is Mom. Here's our job description. You know, that. That. Because we want you to win, and ultimately we want you to be better than where we are. Right.

Fred Harris [00:41:46]:
And we know what you're gonna face.

D. Lee Scott [00:41:47]:
Absolutely. See, we know what you're gonna face. It might be all be different, but hidden racism is some hidden racism. You know, like, we. We have those conversations. I still have those conversations because, you know, one's gonna be entering the 30s soon, and the other one's gonna be in her. In her 40s, you know, in several years. But, you know, and that's where I kind of miss her mom being here, because it's coming from a woman perspective, and I can't do that. But to your point, it's like, always instilling those things. The wisdom. We talked about that. Like, the wisdom, you know, and putting that into our children's. Our children's head. I'm hopeful that at some point, you know, there is a turning of things. But I also say in this space, if I flipped it and said the D5 group, right? Let's just say marketing, communications. I see stuff that's coming down the pipeline, that's in the pipeline, not targeted to our millennial kids or Z's.

Fred Harris [00:42:40]:
There are.

D. Lee Scott [00:42:41]:
There are forces at work that even like my granddaughter, who's four cartoons. Cartoons, where they are manipulating, right, Short attention spans, using this color, changing the characters up. Now you see a lot of characters as animals versus human form. Like, there's just so much. So while I'm optimistic, I'm kind of putting that weight on parents, and I think there may be a shift to Getting back to that, it's some powerful stuff at work. And to your point, social media, which personally, for me, that little. The law that's kind of going where the kids can't be on social media. They're trying to put these restrictions. They did that in Australia. I'm for that. But somebody's going to find a way to get around it.

Fred Harris [00:43:20]:
Well, you haven't seen nothing yet. You think it's bad Now, I won't be here but 30, 40 years from now. Now we have this thing called artificial intelligence. AI, whole nother. Now, when I worked at the schools, I was a little laid up at the school. I don't know, 30, 35 years ago, I was amazed that here's students, good students who could not tell time on a clock.

D. Lee Scott [00:43:51]:
You talking about the. Yeah, the art law.

Fred Harris [00:43:54]:
Because they didn't have to because you had digital watches. They couldn't read a ruler and they had difficult reading because they was never taught their vowels. AI, the vowels. How to sound a word out. How things had changed from the time I was in school. Now, that was 20, 25 years ago. I look at things today and I said, it's not getting better, it's getting worse. Now you have this thing called AI robots coming to replace people. That.

D. Lee Scott [00:44:26]:
That subject is super, super, super scary.

Fred Harris [00:44:30]:
Yes.

D. Lee Scott [00:44:31]:
In so many ways. Not even just in business, but in life. And, you know, there's kids out there, you know, trying to get advice from these.

Fred Harris [00:44:38]:
Well, you have to remember when I grew up in the Benton Homes, which is a Fairview Gardens now, and it was totally different then. That's where I grew up Till I was 13 years old.

D. Lee Scott [00:44:47]:
Probably knew my grandmother.

Fred Harris [00:44:48]:
We was the third family in the Benton Homes to have a television set. And that television set was only 12 inches, just a little round. And people would come into an apartment because they wanted to see this thing called television. And it only came on for about three hours a day. That's it. And it wouldn't go off. See? And how amazing that was. But until that time, we were a lot closer because the kids, we communicated with each other. We didn't have this thing called television. Now, you go from the television, I look at this thing to come along called computers, with these computers and stuff, and I'm lost. That's why I call my grandkids to say, hey, come over. How do I do this? With these cell phones and stuff? Yeah, you see, people were a lot closer back then because had this stuff. I look at my grandsons, I look at the generation, And I think 20 years from now, I feel bad for him. I said with this AI coming up, oh my God, what's this, what's this going to be like?

D. Lee Scott [00:45:52]:
Then you see, there's some, some good articles about that from the standpoint of social, social activity, you know, I mean, as far as human engage, natural human engagements all the way to environmental, which is a whole nother. I want to actually do a round table on it at some point. But you know, talking about social media, which relates to you, you do it every. It's not just in February that you do it, but you do it in February and throughout that you will share. For a lot of us who are really engaged in that, just black history, like things that happen here in Warren, Ohio. And a lot of it, in fact, I'd say all of it kind of just blows my mind because we never, you know, I've never heard that. I didn't know we were at this level. Especially as an entrepreneur, when you hear about some of these individuals who started these things and blossom and did that. So you are a historian, right? What Let me be clear on that too. Especially of black history, right? Is that fair to say? Like, okay, so when we look at that, what pushed you to start doing that, start collecting.

Fred Harris [00:47:00]:
Great question. I've asked myself that question many times and I think back and it sounds kind of strange coming from me because I'm not a super religious person or anything by any stretch of the imagination. But I thought about that, what guided me in this direction. There was only one subject when I was in school that interest me and it was history. Back then it was called American History. That was the one thing that I loved in school, was history. Okay, And I'll go back and say this and I'll repeat it because I've said it before. God put us all here for a purpose. You have to find out what that purpose is now. Not may not be what you want it to be. And always give an example as an example. LeBron James, the great basketball player, he wanted to be a football player. He was all stayed as a sophomore here in the state of hiring football. It was his mother who said, I think you should stick with basketball. See, God puts us all here for a purpose, but he doesn't push us through the door, he cracks it. But you have to go through that door on your own. Well, I've always been interested in history all my life. I've documented things and stuff, see. So it took me a while to finally get it through my thick head, Fred, this is what you was put here to do. See, so I've documented a lot of history. I've had all kind of files and everything. And I tried to get the black church to listen to me. I said, because I felt that history should be documented through the black church. They should have all our records and everything, like the Jews, the Italians, the Greeks, everybody but the blacks. So that's my mission now.

D. Lee Scott [00:48:56]:
Okay, as you. I got some other questions, but I want to hit that one first. What do you hope will be the. The end result of this, this historical collection? Is there a, you know, place where you want people to go? Like, explain that.

Fred Harris [00:49:11]:
When I was down in Alabama a couple years ago with Cheryl Saffo, Bob Saffo, her. Her father, in the historical museum down there, and I had a chance to tour it. And I said, wow. And the guy who started it, he was a lawyer, and I asked him, how did you get this place right down in the middle of the city and where did you get the money and how did you do all this? And he said, well, he said it was to him, a couple other young fellas, they was talking like, I, you know, I am with the history and everything. And they had this idea and they had a little. They did a little write up on him in the newspaper down there in Alabama. So this white fellow called him from New York and he said he was interested, could he work with him. So they said, oh, yeah, okay, anybody can. So it turned out, to make a long story short, it turned out that this fellow was from a family of billionaires. And he said, I'm going to back this entire program. I only have one thing that I'm going to ask, that if you put this museum down here, this black history museum, it not be in the black community. I want it right downtown so everybody can see it, so white folks can see what took place. See, that was the only stipulation. Okay, all right. That was my goal here in the city of Warren, that we put a museum, a black museum, history museum, right in downtown Warren, document our history, not so much for black people, but for white people to see.

D. Lee Scott [00:50:48]:
Now you said, what is it still? That's still a drive for you to do?

Fred Harris [00:50:52]:
Well, that's what the friends of Liberation Historical foundation, my grandson and myself, you know, we put this together. I wanted this to be done under the black church. I felt the black church to do this. For 25 years, I've talked to the various black ministers, but to no avail. It just. They just didn't see my dream. So I gave him My grandson, because like I said, he does all the computer stuff and all of this stuff. I don't know how to do it. So we put this thing together, the Friends of Liberation Historical Foundation. We set it up under a nonprofit 501C3. And we just got everything set up now where we're raising funds so we can document our history and preserve it, hopefully right here in downtown Warren.

D. Lee Scott [00:51:34]:
We'll make sure to put that in the show notes to kind of amplify that a little bit. Sticking with history, you know, because I had a lot. I had a lot of history questions for you, not of what happened, but just from your insight. So I narrowed them down for time's sake, I guess. Is there a story warn black history, Right. That should be taught in schools? Granted, we got this attack on DEI and all this other stuff, right. So you can't force it. But if in the perfect storm, is there a. There are probably many, but is there one certain for you that should be taught in every school?

Fred Harris [00:52:09]:
Well, one story to be taught is the story of the stuff that took place. Ready? Warren Harding High School. You know, you hear me talk about Hank Angelo, who was the mayor. You see, we had a little race riot up at Harding High School years ago. When Hank Angelo was in high school, he was involved in that. And that's actually the first time I seen Hank Angelo. He was in high school. I was with Bob Sappho because they called us up to the school because the whites and the blacks were not getting along very well. Okay. See, there again, it's all destiny. Hank Angelo would go on to serve on the Warren City School board and become the mayor and bring Fred Harrison as a safety service director.

D. Lee Scott [00:52:58]:
Wow.

Fred Harris [00:53:00]:
That's why I said, you know, God works in mysterious ways.

D. Lee Scott [00:53:07]:
Were you surprised when people start sharing the history, like the stuff that you share, you know, like people, different ages and races.

Fred Harris [00:53:15]:
Well, that's. I'm glad you brought that up. That is an excellent question.

D. Lee Scott [00:53:18]:
Well, thank you.

Fred Harris [00:53:21]:
It was a professor, and I cannot remember his name. He was over the history department at Youngstown State. And I had a chance to sit down with him and him and I would debate back and forth. And it was him. He was the one who told me, fred, the history of your people are being lost. And he's the one that gave me the idea to document this. He gave me a Cassidy recorder. He gave it to me. And he's the one who told me. And he's white. You should go out and get these stories before they're lost. The first person that I interviewed, her name was Ms. Frankie. She was in the nursing home. She was 107 years old. And I said, Ms. Frankie, can you tell me a little bit about your mother? She said, yeah, my mother was a slave, you know, in Alabama. And I worked with my mother in the kitchen. She was a kitchen slave. And I said, Ms. Frankie, can you tell me a little bit about your grandmother? Now, keep in mind, Ms. Frankie was 170 years old. So when I said, can you tell me a little bit about your grandmother? She said, well, not much, because my grandmother was right from Africa, and she never learned to speak English. That's how far back I could go. So I learned by going to elderly black people and asking them their history, the stories that they told me and how far back they could take me.

D. Lee Scott [00:54:43]:
Wow. And you did something with the Historical Society.

Fred Harris [00:54:45]:
Okay, what happened? The Historical foundation found out that I was doing this. Okay. Megan Reed.

D. Lee Scott [00:54:53]:
Yep.

Fred Harris [00:54:54]:
So she asked could she meet with me. So I met her down at the Mocha house. So we talked for about an hour and a half, and she said, wow. And she said, that's great. So two weeks later, she called me and she said she had the finances to do or oral history program.

D. Lee Scott [00:55:12]:
Yeah.

Fred Harris [00:55:14]:
Cheryl Safo, my niece. My grandson, Darius. Darius Harris in my South. We did the entire program, interviewed elderly black people. We turned it over to the Historical Society. They entered it in this program, State of Ohio. They were rated. That was rated the top program in the state of Ohio over Ohio State. Megan and them got a $250,000 grant for that program that we did. Now, I attempted to get the black churches to do this years before that, to no avail. They wouldn't do it.

D. Lee Scott [00:55:56]:
And I remember one time, because I remember you doing this, and it was. It kind of brought to light because a lot of them were older and. And, you know, I hate to use this word, but they were. They were passing away.

Fred Harris [00:56:07]:
Exactly.

D. Lee Scott [00:56:08]:
And all this. All this history. Right. And so now you get to the second line of defense is the boomers. And so, you know, the silent generation is fading off, and you had a boom. There's so much history when you look at that that could have been lost.

Fred Harris [00:56:22]:
Yeah, it was lost.

D. Lee Scott [00:56:24]:
You know, and it. You know, sometimes I remember that it inspires me to want to write, because now it is the baby boomers. And there's a few of them who I would thought be around forever. They're, you know, they're passing off, but a lot of it is Eastside people I know, but they had stories. They used to tell us stories all the time of the Benton Homes and Draper Homes and the flood, you know, just all this stuff. And so I think that's very important. Do you. Is it. Does it still get pushed out? Like, is there access? I'm sure online, but is it, you know, do you hear about.

Fred Harris [00:56:55]:
Not the way it should be. And this kind of upsets me. And I had this debate with some of the so called black leaders in the black community. They, they was telling me, it's a new day, things are different now. We should forget this stuff. We should never forget our history. I think that's one of the problems that we have in the city today with our crime rate among black people is because they don't know who they really are and where they come from. If they understood whose shoulders that they stand upon, I think they would have a little more respect, I believe.

D. Lee Scott [00:57:30]:
You know, we worked on a project not too long ago and there was some kind of, why are you bringing up the past and why you. You know, and in my head, and my son, you know, he wasn't one of the ones that said it, but I was kind of laying it on and we had a splitting the bourbon together and just talking about, you know, the pressure that comes with that because people don't want to, you know. Okay, that happened. But let's talk about now from a respectful standpoint when things were bad. What you really saying to me is that those individuals that went through that, they're not important anymore. They're not. Let's just start right here. And it's just like in a relationship, always say in a good, healthy relationship, marriage or whatever it might be, the two pillars of that is, you know, trust and communication. And to get to those things, sometimes, you know, you got to talk about the past, what happened. Right? Okay. Yes, this happened. Acknowledge that, give it its energy, and then have a conversation on how can we fix this? How can we prevent this not happening? And then you have the conversation of where do we go from here? So it is important to talk about those things that happened in the. You don't want to just wash over it.

Fred Harris [00:58:38]:
If you don't know your past, you're destined to repeat it.

D. Lee Scott [00:58:42]:
Yes, sir.

Fred Harris [00:58:43]:
See?

D. Lee Scott [00:58:44]:
Yes, sir.

Fred Harris [00:58:45]:
See, I never want to see the things happen that I seen in the 40s and 50s. Okay. We never want to see it like that again with people of color, black people. See, know your past. You look at the Jewish people, look at the Italians, look at the Greeks. They document their history. Yeah, but we Let other people tell us our history. We let other races document our history for us. And they conveniently leave certain things out. And I say, I tell my grandkids all the time, find the oldest black person you can and ask them about their past when they was little boys, little girls, and they talk. I talked to my wife's mother. I interviewed her. She's no longer here. You know, that was years ago. And I asked her, tell me about how you was raised down there in Alabama. And she said, oh, my God. You know, the stories that she told me. And I said, wow, none of these stories are in any history books and stuff. And I said, wow, the stories that Miss Frankie told me out there at that nursing home, she. Like I said, She's 170 years old. I think she was one of the few people, black people, in the United States of America, who had a college degree at that time, which she went through, the stuff that they went through. And I go, wow, now you appreciate where you're at now a lot better. This generation now takes this stuff for granted, see? And I remind them, no, it wasn't like that. We had to fight Martin Luther King and Malcolm X. They never reached the age of 40. They died before the age of 40. They died to put us in this position. The things that they went through, how many times they went to jail. Angela Davis, you know, and black people right here in the city of Warren, people like Bob Dawson. When I asked young black people, do you know who Zip Brooks was? I have a clue. Zip Brooks lived right there on 3rd street until he passed away. His wife, Lily Brooks. Okay? Zip Brooks was the first black trainer in professional sports. He saved Willie Mays career. I have the documentation. Documentation. I'll show you this stuff, see, that happened right here in war. I don't know about it. And when I mentioned Bob Dawson's name, they have no idea who he is. They said, well, Fred, you were the first safety service director. I said, no, I was the second.

D. Lee Scott [01:01:19]:
Which we talked about earlier, because I thought he was the first. Literally in my. My questions. Yes. Yeah, that. That's.

Fred Harris [01:01:26]:
Well, very few families, black families lived on the west side of Warren. See? And I tell young black people what it used to be like down there on Pine Street. That was our black downtown down there. All the different. The barbecue place that we had down there, Beasley's Pool Room and the Moxley Store. And, you know, it was like a downtown to us. Down there, it was all black people. Black and Jewish people owned these things. That's Mr. John P. Aldis, one of the richest Greeks in the state of Ohio today. That's Anthony Piovalas, Father. See, I deal with John, not Anthony.

D. Lee Scott [01:02:05]:
Wow. So I want to talk about the community region real quick before we wrap up some but. And you can take this to the Mahoney Valley. You can centralize it to Warren. You'll call if we say to Mount Horning Valley, which so does Warren. You know, there's been a lot of hardship, some growth and some hardship. Right. We, as I say, left hooked, right hook, uppercut. You know, we still get up for you. You choose if you want to do the region or the city. What strength do you see here that other people might just overlook? Well,

Fred Harris [01:02:40]:
I had this discussion with Pastor Todd Johnson. You know, I got a lot of respect for Todd. I knew Todd's father when he was a young fellow in high school. You know, he was a little behind me in high school. Okay. And I told Todd, you know, he's leaving here. He's going to New York. He has a bigger church in New York.

D. Lee Scott [01:03:03]:
Yeah, yeah.

Fred Harris [01:03:05]:
I told him, well, you have to do what you feel is best for you. But what are some of the benefits here in the city of Warren? You know, you can war outside of Mahoning Valley. I shouldn't just say Warren because you have a. You have a black mayor here in the city of Warren. You have a black city manager, safety service director in Youngstown. You have a black mayor. The board of Education here in the city of Warren. Out of five people on that board, four of them are black. There's a lot of opportunity. And I tell people, you know, ask Helen Rucker. Helen Rucker has been on city council for 20 years here. She did things here that I don't think she could have did in Cleveland or Dayton or Cincinnati or anywhere else. There's a lot. A lot of opportunity here if you use it most. I talked to a lot of young black people now, and they can't wait to get out of high school. When they get out of high school and they get out of college, I'm getting out of Warren. I'm leaving Warren.

D. Lee Scott [01:04:02]:
Oh, yeah, mine did that, you see, Came back, though.

Fred Harris [01:04:04]:
But exactly.

D. Lee Scott [01:04:05]:
But did that.

Fred Harris [01:04:06]:
Exactly. I tell my niece, Cheryl Safo. I tell her that all the time. I said, there's nothing wrong with Warren. You only have five personalities in the world. Okay? Warren just has a few. When I say a few, few people. When you go to Columbus or Date or Cincinnati, you find a lot more people that you have to compete against.

D. Lee Scott [01:04:32]:
Right?

Fred Harris [01:04:33]:
You put it that way.

D. Lee Scott [01:04:34]:
Right.

Fred Harris [01:04:35]:
See, you can get a. There's a lot of opportunity right here in the city of Warren. And I shouldn't just say the city of Warren, Mahoning Valley.

D. Lee Scott [01:04:45]:
What do you hope? I don't want to beat the younger generation up, but I do want to ask this question before I get to our random segment, but what do you hope younger generations carry forward from your generation?

Fred Harris [01:04:55]:
The fight that we had to go through to put them in the position that they're in now. You know, and this is what I told Pastor Todd. We had our talk. See, you realize whose shoulders you stand on. You know what your father, mother, your grandmother, your grandfather, what they had to go through to put you. You in the position. During today, I tell my niece, Cheryl Safo, I tell her that, you know, what your father had to go through when he was the first black fireman down there at the city of Warren. You know, a fireman is 24 hours on and 48 hours off. They didn't want to sleep in his bed behind him. He had to bring his own utensils, knife, fork and spoon to eat because they didn't want to eat out of it. Oh, yeah, yeah.

D. Lee Scott [01:05:37]:
He just got a. There was a, an award right when they're on.

Fred Harris [01:05:42]:
These are the things that he had to go through. These are the things that my generation and my mother and father's generation had to go through. My father could never be promoted to Republic Steel. He was a foreman, but he could only be a foreman over the labor gang, which was all black. See, we had to fight to bust that stuff open. Like we talked about earlier, where my mother, the only place she could use the bathroom in the downtown city of Warren was down stairs in the courthouse. These are the things we had to overcome. Never forget it. Never forget.

D. Lee Scott [01:06:16]:
Okay, so I got this random question round.

Fred Harris [01:06:20]:
No problem.

D. Lee Scott [01:06:21]:
I know, because you just sitting there, chill.

Fred Harris [01:06:23]:
They just can't ask me. You can't embarrass me.

D. Lee Scott [01:06:26]:
No, no. It's fun questions. It's fun questions that I just like, sit and think about and I don't really write them down. It's kind of in my head. But my first one for you is, and I'm always interested in this, if money wasn't an issue and you could go anywhere, but anywhere on this globe, where would you go and why?

Fred Harris [01:06:46]:
This may sound kind of funny. You know, it's coming from me. Nowhere. I've been to Cleveland. I had opportunities to go to Cleveland. I was asked to come to Cleveland. You know, I I was asked to. I had a lot of opportunity. I could have left Warren. I had a lot of excellent opportunities. And there's times when I've sat out and thought to myself, what in the world were you thinking? Why did you leave? Why didn't you leave here? No, because I'm comfortable of what. What I did here in the city of Warren. The ground that we broke. See, So I. I don't, I don't. It doesn't bother me. And then this month. This may sound funny, but I was never. Well, there was a time when I wanted to be rich and I just couldn't figure out. I told my wife, every time, when I help people, things go good, but when I try to make money, something goes wrong. And that's when it finally dawned on me. I had to get it through my thick head, well, maybe you should just keep trying to help people and lead the money part alone. That's when I start being what you would call successful.

D. Lee Scott [01:07:54]:
Because the provisions always and to this

Fred Harris [01:07:56]:
day, money means nothing to me. I never. I don't have no desire. I could care less. If I. If I hit the lottery and won $10 million, I'd it away. I don't, you know, if you were.

D. Lee Scott [01:08:08]:
Had the power to cure one, one disease in the world as a, As a doctor, you could just.

Fred Harris [01:08:13]:
Boop.

D. Lee Scott [01:08:14]:
What. What would that be?

Fred Harris [01:08:17]:
Well, this is kind of selfish here, but it would be lupus. My son passed away. My grandson's, you know, their father, he passed away because of lupus. It was, it was a sudden thing and it really shook me up, you know, and I just. There's one thing that I, you know, you never get over that.

D. Lee Scott [01:08:37]:
Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

Fred Harris [01:08:38]:
But if I had the power, you know, I would cure lupus.

D. Lee Scott [01:08:44]:
You have choose whoever historical figure or they don't have to be historical and popular, but you get to have dinner with them. Whether they have. They're here now, they've passed or whatever. But you could have dinner with them. Who would that individual be and what, you know, just in a nutshell, what conversation would you have with him or her?

Fred Harris [01:09:02]:
I don't even have to think about that. Malcolm X. I was a big Malcolm X fan. You know, you had Martin Luther King over here and he had Malcolm. Malcolm X over here. Martin Luther King said, you know, nonviolence, you know, we will taint our goals through non violence. Malcolm said, Malcolm X said, if they step on your foot, step on the throat. See, I was with Malcolm, I was with Malcolm and I had a chance to meet Dr. Martin Luther King, he wasn't like he. The Dr. Martin Luther King, you know, today he was kind of just starting up. And he had came up here because when Carl Stokes is election. When we ran Carl Stokes's election, the first black man in the.

D. Lee Scott [01:09:45]:
Cleveland.

Fred Harris [01:09:46]:
Cleveland. Yep. Okay. I was with Dr. Rogers. Dr. Rogers was his campaign manager. That's where I'd learned basic politics from Dr. Rogers. And Dr. Martin Luther King was here. But Carl Stokes and then would not allow Dr. Martin Luther King to stay in a hotel in the city. He had to stay outside of the city because they didn't want to upset the white folks. See, Dr. Martin Luther King's real strength was in the south, not the north. Okay. To.

D. Lee Scott [01:10:17]:
Whereas Malcolm X, he was kind of universal. You feel like. Or was it more up north and less south?

Fred Harris [01:10:25]:
Like, was it a Malcolm X and Dr. Martin Luther King really liked each other behind closed doors because they would come from two different directions. Dr. Martin Luther King said non violence. Malcolm X said just the opposite. So who would you rather deal with if you was white, Dr. Martin Luther King or Malcolm X? See, Malcolm X pushed the people to Dr. Martin Luther King. And we said, we will burn this country down. Black power. So we push. We push the white folks to Dr. Martin Luther King. They said, well, we'll deal with Martin Luther King because Malcolm X coming on this side.

D. Lee Scott [01:11:03]:
Yeah.

Fred Harris [01:11:04]:
So who do you want to deal with? My father was on the side with Dr. Martin Luther King while I was over here with Malcolm X. So my father would look at me and just shake his head.

D. Lee Scott [01:11:17]:
Wrapping up our segment because it's been totally enjoyable. If you had to choose one word that captures your life journey so far, what word would that be? And please tell us why?

Fred Harris [01:11:29]:
Dedication. You know, I've always been dedicated to the movement, man. And that's why I said money never meant that much to me. I thought it did it one time, and I tried to get rich, but something always happened in my life to set me back, and I just couldn't understand why can't I get rich? I've seen the people around me make millions, okay? But I never could be successful in that area. Only when I start doing my true cause, helping people and fighting for the cause that I kind of say, I guess you would say, went up the ladder a little bit. And like I said, that's what led to me being safety service director.

D. Lee Scott [01:12:10]:
Right.

Fred Harris [01:12:11]:
Because if I wouldn't have went out and fight those. Fought those drug dealers, because nobody would do it in the city of Warren and the Highland Terrorists, they came here from Detroit. My father was living on Fourth street and I knew my father and I said, he's going to say. So I said, now we got to get these guys out of here. So that's when I said, okay, I'll do it myself. And that's when Hank Angelo, who was a safety service director at the time, he heard about this and he's wanted to talk to me and he said, look, you can't do this. They said to put the word out, they're going to shoot you. I said, I don't care. They'll have to shoot me. See? And that's when I had the drug marches. And I was shocked when I got up at Second Baptist Church because that's where I left from going to the Highlander. And it was over 75 people that was waiting on me. I was shocked. That's where it all started. And that's where Hank Angelo actually first met me. Yeah.

D. Lee Scott [01:13:05]:
To have that meeting.

Fred Harris [01:13:06]:
Yeah.

D. Lee Scott [01:13:06]:
Is there anything you want to leave our listeners with before we sign out? Of course, we're going to put more information about what you're doing with the, the history and all that in our show notes. But is there anything that you want to part off with?

Fred Harris [01:13:17]:
I guess we pretty well covered everything, you know.

D. Lee Scott [01:13:20]:
Yes, sir.

Fred Harris [01:13:21]:
So I'll let it go with that.

D. Lee Scott [01:13:22]:
All right, ladies and gentlemen, thank you for tuning in to Sound United Presents. I hope you got a lot from from this interview. And we don't have sponsors, but always say, you know, this podcast is housed in Sound United Podcast Studio. You can check us out at the sound you the soundletter u.com if you want to do a podcast, you can do it here. Take it easy. This episode was produced by the Sound United Podcast Studio, led by Kimberly Gonzalez. Photography and video content produced by the D5 group. And be sure to visit our website, soundunitedpresents.com where you can catch up on all the episodes and get some behind the scenes content. I'm desean Scott. Thank you for listening.